Visit uncharted.ca!
  • authored by retailworker
  • published Thu, Apr 25, 2002

open source unionism

Open Source Unionism

I think this deserves its own thread. I'd like to focus both on open source unionism in the analogical sense that the authors of the essay intend (a method of creating networked unions), and in the literal sense of open source technology (a method of developing and licensing software) being a valuable tool for unions.

First off, in the other, rude thread, the creation of a union-friendly variety of Linux was proposed. Let's withdraw that. It's probable that among union locals you'll find a wide variety of legacy operating systems, probably going back to Windows 3.1, if not further (shudder). So rather than propose the development of a new OS and the subsequent upgrade hell, let's turn the focus to the development of open-source, platform-independent applications.

Currently, some rather expensive, proprietary solutions are available: check out UnionWare, a software company that builds tools that track union membership, dues, grievances, events, and registration; also check out CTSG, the AFL-CIO's choice of technology solutions, and rumor has it, the company that will be remaking the UFCW International Web site.

CTSG products include:

  • Web Action Center -allows clients to easily create web pages, allows visitors to easily email or fax congress members, and contains a directory of Federal and State Officials, searchable by zip code, with key contact information, committee memberships, biographical data, staff information, and other data
  • Activist Relationship Manager -Clients can send out targeted emails based on issue preferences, demographics, electoral districts, counties, zip codes, previous action taken, or desired frequency of receiving alerts. These emails can be personalized via email-merge to include information such as Congressional District, previous activist activity, etc. It also has an email to fax feature.
  • Content Management
  • ePetitions and ePostcards
  • Interactive Dynamic Content -Localized Content, Polls, Online Stores.

The price for a UnionWare solution starts at base-fee of $9,500 with monthly billings of $450. I would assume CTSG's services are staggering higher.

Much of the functionality of the software these companies provide can also be found in free, open source software. The software that runs RetailWorker.com and BordersUnion.com has modules avaiable that let you send faxes for free internationally, send ePostcards, conduct polls, build mailing lists, manage expenses, track bugs (aka grievances), build job databases, manage contacts, build FAQs and knowledge bases.

The problem is, these modules weren't created with union-specific tasks in mind, and the functionality of the modules isn't integrated - they don't talk to one another like the software components offered by the above companies do.
Developing union-specific functionality for these exisiting applications, and integrating them, would require some sort of organization. That's why I proposed that the AFL-CIO announce its support for the open source concept and create a team of developers to create tese tools.

If you don't like the AFL-CIO, maybe it could be some other organization, but that organization would have to be big, because it has big enemies - media companies like Disney and trade associations like the RIAA who are engaged in an assault against the free flow of information via intellectual property legislation. The Digital Millenium Copyright Act was just the start. Senator Fritz Hollings' Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act, in its present form could make the creation of free software legally and economically prohibitive in the US. Open source proponents need their lobbyists in Congress too, and since big labor stands to benefit from the availability of open source technology, why not add its voice to the fray?

By doing so, the labor movement would not only earn the respect and services of free software creators, but would also lay the technological foundation for the vision of "open source unionism" expressed by the authors of the piece.

  • posted by siggy
  • Thu, Apr 25, 2002 9:20pm

K .. someone tell me what we are talking about? I have an idea what is meant by *open source unionism* but ..

quote:


these modules weren't created with union-specific tasks in mind


Modules? .. union specific tasks? I don't get it.

  • posted by globalize_this
  • Thu, Apr 25, 2002 10:51pm

quote:


Modules? .. union specific tasks? I don't get it.


Beats me. Maybe some of our techie friends can jump in here. It seems to me, though, that even within the Open Source Unionism discussion topic there's a technical thread and a social thread. Then again, the two depend on each other, too, because the social aspect of the union can only go as far online as technology allows, and technology developers need to ask the social questions so they know what sort of new technology is most needed.

I'm going to repost my questions from the Revolutionary Unionism thread, although I still think they're mostly rhetorical for now. We don't have any Open Source unions right now to look at for examples. The most we have now are a few stirrings that there's got to be a better way of doing things.

As an online union community emerges:

1. What will be the relationship between the membership of this online "virtual" community and real shop-floor worker communities, including conventional union-represented bargaining units? How much do or will they overlap?

2. Are there union services that can and should be provided specifically to an online community membership? What kind? What would be the relationship between these services and the traditional services provided to bargaining unit members? How should unions pay for all of this? Will they charge some of their online members dues? Or perhaps fee-for-service? How much should "virtual" members pay compared to shop floor bargaining unit members?

3. When these projects are undertaken by some entity other than an international union, to what extent might this project encroach upon their traditional jurisdiction? Does anyone here care if that happens? If and when conflicts arise, how will they be resolved?

I'd add as well, particular to the second and third point, that there's no reason why open source unions have to evolve from traditional unions. Traditional unions have the resources to make things happen more quickly, but they also have much greater organizational inertia to overcome.

Maybe the first real open source unions will evolve from purely virtual communities like MFD or retailworker. This is thinking really big, but what if some of our communities matured enough that we felt we wanted to do more than just get together and talk - that we wanted to undertake and coordinate sustained workplace actions, or that we wanted to start providing some conventional or unconventional union services through our web portals. The same questions would apply to us. Would we want to set up some kind of workplace or geographically situated branches? How would we deal with other unions and community organizations that felt we were encroaching on their "turf". How would we pay for all this?

Let me end by apologizing to Siggy. I couldn't answer your question, so I just fired off a range of unrelated questions of my own. Is there a way we can talk about both the technical and the social, bringing the two together in one thread?

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 2:14am

Good Article!
Long, but tasty!

quote:


The new form would disrupt settled attitudes and routines and shift power in unions. It would open the door of the house of labor to many workers and groups that would create changes greater than those the current AFL-CIO leadership team has struggled to effectuate. It would threaten the hegemony of union functionaries heavily invested in the old bureaucratic system and unwilling to embrace the new form. Union Web sites would be more open to criticism of leadership. Members outside of collective bargaining would demand greater attention to local political activities and labor-community alliances that could influence their work sites. Weak and often ineffective regional bodies, notably CLCs, would have to be strengthened, which could produce new intermediate union associations that would further shake up the existing dominance of the traditional nationals.


And therein lies the problem! I believe a good percentage of unions have already proved their unwillingness to change... to grow with new technologies and economies. The UFCW has certainly proved unwilling.

I believe it's going to be up to the members to force such a change upon their unions. Not an easy task as the only thing they appear to respond to is a threat to their bottom line.

quote:


created with union-specific tasks in mind


As I asked in the other ("rude") thread; What are union-specific tasks?

What technology does a union require to obtain open-source-unionism functionality that doesn't already exist or isn't already in development by OSS developers?

quote:


That's why I proposed that the AFL-CIO announce its support for the open source concept and create a team of developers to create tese tools.


I would LOVE to see the AFL-CIO embrace OSS and trounce Senator Fritz and his CBDTPA! However I wouldn't want the AFL-CIO to monopolize the software dev' for progressive unions!

I believe that a central organization responsible for creating the technology for OSU's would (perhaps unintentionally) neglect one of the most important aspects of unionism - Union Culture.

Instead I would prefer to see each union train and nurture qualified and/or industrious members - in house - to do the development. If the unions can send their execs' to Hawaii to talk about benefits there is no reason they can't send their devs' and IT folks to the CES to meet-greet-&-strategize with other union devs' and IT's.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 3:19am

quote:


As I asked in the other ("rude") thread; What are union-specific tasks?

What technology does a union require to obtain open-source-unionism functionality that doesn't already exist or isn't already in development by OSS developers?


Nothing very mysterious. For example, rewriting a help desk request tracker as a grievance tracker, etc...

A module is a software component (e.g. a chat room app) that can be easily installed or uninstalled without altering the main code of the core application.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 3:37am

quote:


I would LOVE to see the AFL-CIO embrace OSS and trounce Senator Fritz and his CBDTPA! However I wouldn't want the AFL-CIO to monopolize the software dev' for progressive unions!


Well, an open source project can't be monopolized. That's the point.

The publicity about it can be monopolized. "AFL-CIO endorses GPL" is going to ring more bells than "MFD endorses GPL".

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 3:41am

quote:


Nothing very mysterious. For example, rewriting a help desk request tracker as a grievance tracker, etc...


Given a sufficient spec and a coffee-maker, you, me, and a boatload of O'Reilly books could do that in a weekend!

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 4:33am

quote:


Well, an open source project can't be monopolized. That's the point.


Every local has different-specific needs and requirements. Some larger locals might require huge enterprise level servers while other, smaller locals, will barely be able to utilize a P 166.

Some locals may be able to get away with using mySQL, others may need PostgreSQL.

With so many variables a cookie-cutter approach would be too costly.

Either way, locals will still need an in-house dev' to customize the apps for whatever hardware they have and the features they need. This, and the nature of OSS, IMO makes a centralized dev' team redundant.

I'd like to see the AFL-CIO makes software recommendations and maybe provide some people to help put it together for individual locals, but to pin a single team with making software packages to suit is a huge and complicated undertaking.

If we could convince whatever org' that takes the reigns to spring for the hardware too - I'm game! But I have a feeling a grievance tracking app in a little 46 member local might cause more havoc than help.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 9:47am

quote:


This, and the nature of OSS, IMO makes a centralized dev' team redundant


Who's advocating a "centralized" Dev team? You are. You're advocating each local as a center of development. I'm advocating a traditional open source project: the team is spread around the world. It just happens to be sponsored by a large organization.

The software would be scalable and modular, easily customized to fit the needs of any size local. Something like a cross between ZOPE (an application server platform) and postnuke (your basic Web site management software).

Actually, Postnuke utilizes a database abstraction layer, so it can connect to PostGre, oracle, and the rest.

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 1:53pm

quote:


That's why I proposed that the AFL-CIO announce its support for the open source concept and create a team of developers to create tese tools.


That smells like "centralized" to me.

quote:


I'm advocating a traditional open source project: the team is spread around the world.


But you'd still need an in-house dev' to put it all together for that specific local. Put a developer in each local and you already have a "team" with a better awareness of that specific locals' requirements and resources.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Fri, Apr 26, 2002 2:15pm

But the team would be comprised of developers from locals - and whoever else volunteers.

Postnuke Core project has 121 registered developers and a team of volunteer managers.

Its modules projects has another 81 developers

Its theme project has 15 developers.

And then there all the unofficial developers who take the code and hack it for their own purposes.

That's the kind of project I'm talking about.

  • posted by sleK
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 6:16am

[two weeks later]

quote:


That's the kind of project I'm talking about.


And that type of project doesn't require any influence or backing or advocacy from any organization like the AFL-CIO.

A project like this would, IMO, be more useful and effective if the large parent orgs' were left out of the loop entirely.

Leave the responsibility, imagination, and innovation to the folks that have to implement, maintain, and measure the technical aspects of such endeavors.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 12:12pm

I disagree. I think your unthinking rejection of any centralized approach is kneejerk anarchism.
You won't even consider it.

Open source projects do occur within centralized organizations. The Zope project is run by the Zope Corporation, for instance. I think some labor organization should hire a team of project managers to get the ball rolling.

  • posted by weiser
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 1:32pm

I see where you're going, JD. When you look at today's unions, you see poorly-run businesses. That's where unions are contributing to their own rapid demise.

You seem to be saying that with good "administration" everything will be all right with unions. If they are run to best business practices, they will flourish.

Hey, in the short run, that would be an improvement over the wasteful shoddy "bass-aackward" operations run by so many incompetent union operations and financial managers.

However, running a better business isn't the answer to equitable pie sharing between capital and labour.

I think D. Neal has a pretty good grasp of what will work:

quote:


In revolutionary unions, there is no status hierarchy between workers - no distinction between senior and junior workers. Moreover, there is no union bureaucracy or leadership to decide for workers what does or does not get done. All initiative comes from below - from the rank-and-file, who, by their own efforts, make their wishes felt and known. This approach produces a considerably more democratic union, with an active, informed membership.


Neal's vision doesn't rule out union administrators as support staff to the Power Source. He merely envisions a truly Power Source driven decision-making process.

The major flaw in the vision is the reality of human nature and its attraction to the seven deadly sins.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 3:07pm

quote:


posted by weiser:
[QB]I see where you're going, JD. When you look at today's unions, you see poorly-run businesses. That's where unions are contributing to their own rapid demise.

You seem to be saying that with good "administration" everything will be all right with unions. If they are run to best business practices, they will flourish.


That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I was talking about the organization of a software project. Big projects need project managers. Good project managers, often but not always, like to be paid for their work. Once again, it should be clear that nobody owns an open source project, even if someone pays for its development. Having an organization manage the project will not give that organization ultimate control, it gives it provisional control, which if the managers screw up, will most likely result in a development fork - i.e., a group of developers with a different vision will take the code that has already been developed and mold it to their own specs. My contention is that the best way to get this project initiated is to have some kind of official sponsorship which would create publicity and the opportunity to influence law regarding the intellectual property aspects of open source software development.

Now, on the other tack, the structure of unions, the essay on revolutionary unionism was long on hope and short on specifics.

Here's a piece that argues against rev unionism and the idea of a decentralized approach:

http://www.law.nyu.edu/laborcenter/IUESSAY.2.html

It ahs mainly to do wiht reform of American labor law, so it may not mean much to most of you.

  • posted by sleK
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 3:33pm

quote:


I disagree. I think your unthinking rejection of any centralized approach is kneejerk anarchism.
You won't even consider it.


Wrong, on both accounts... I have both *considered* and *thought* about your approach to an OSS movement in labour and IMO it is neither economical nor efficient nor effective.

If you can explain to me how a centalized team of project managers, sponsered by an org' like the AFL-CIO, can develop and produce customized solutions for the thousands of locals of different sizes, needs, and cultures, in North America - I might change my mind.

Then explain to me how this idea is more efficient than letting each individual local determine and implement solutions for their own unique requirements.

Then explain to me how this idea is more economical than letting each individual local determine and implement solutions for their own unique requirements.

Then you could list some more examples of "union specific" tasks and explain why a centralized team of developers would be necessary to create and customize solutions to these tasks.

quote:


The Zope project is run by the Zope Corporation, for instance.


The Zope Corporation is a *for profit* entity. The Zope Corporation does not "run" the Zope Project, they *back* the Zope Project. IOW, they profit from free, enthusiast, labour.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 5:40pm

quote:


posted by slek:
If you can explain to me how a centalized team of project managers, sponsered by an org' like the AFL-CIO, can develop and produce customized solutions for the thousands of locals of different sizes, needs, and cultures, in North America - I might change my mind.
[/QB]


Sure. That's easy. The software is scalable and modular and open source.

  • posted by sleK
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 6:02pm

quote:


The software is scalable and modular and open source.


Therefore negating the need for a central agency to develop it.

Now for the rest of my points?...

  • posted by retailworker
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 6:09pm

oh but it also needs a core, an api, etc. Some rules.

Plus I've already given my reasons as to the greater social impact.

  • posted by sleK
  • Mon, May 6, 2002 6:18pm

quote:


oh but it also needs a core, an api, etc. Some rules.


Which all already exist in OSS. So if you're talking about modifying existing software, your point is moot. If you're suggesting that unions need software that doesn't already exist, and need to develop it themselves, I'm asking you what these applications are.

For the third, or fourth, time:

What are union-specific tasks?

  • posted by cmkl
  • Wed, May 8, 2002 10:53am

quote:


What are union-specific tasks?


A database of collective agreements with an elaborate set of meta data that allow a researcher or analyst to categorize contract language on a large (but not infinite) number of issues according to how good it is, and able to measure progress over time and index the full text of said same agreements.

An application that will take user input to generate a PDF of standard contract language or constitutional language to help a new local create by-laws or contract proposals for a first contract,

A flow-chart-like application to explain rules of procedure for union meetings (One for Bourinot's, one for Roberts' one for Code CSN or whatever else gets used out there)

A transaction application that allows locals to order supplies or paraphenalia that interacts with another system that tracks a local's membership and their payment of per capitas.

An interviewing application that leads an activist or shop steward through the process of filing a grievance or a health and safety complaint (imagine Quick tax but for your collective agreement).

That's off the top of my head. What are you waiting for? Get coding.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Wed, May 8, 2002 11:13am

There ya go. Sounds a bit ambitious for your average local tech guy.

  • posted by sleK
  • Thu, May 9, 2002 3:22am

quote:


A database of collective agreements with an elaborate set of meta data that allow a researcher or analyst to categorize contract language on a large (but not infinite) number of issues according to how good it is, and able to measure progress over time and index the full text of said same agreements.




Database of collective agreements? No problem.

Tell me how you'd measure "good" and "progress".

quote:


An application that will take user input to generate a PDF of standard contract language or constitutional language to help a new local create by-laws or contract proposals for a first contract,


What type of user input would be required?

How would the input influence the output.

Give me some examples.

quote:


A flow-chart-like application to explain rules of procedure for union meetings (One for Bourinot's, one for Roberts' one for Code CSN or whatever else gets used out there)


Don't really need an app' for that. A web page/wap page would do fine. These probably already exist, although not in a comprehensive, member-friendly form.

quote:


A transaction application that allows locals to order supplies or paraphenalia that interacts with another system that tracks a local's membership and their payment of per capitas.


More database stuff.
The biggest problem I see with this is that the original order information has to move in two separate directions simultaneously: 1) into the DB for querying later 2) into whatever system the supplier uses for receiving orders. And any changes, omissions, and errors would have to be dealt with the same way.

I'm no DB designer but it doesn't sound terribly difficult.

Imagine the implications if this DB was available to the membership!

That's be some serious transparency!

quote:


An interviewing application that leads an activist or shop steward through the process of filing a grievance or a health and safety complaint (imagine Quick tax but for your collective agreement).


This sounds like a job for ASP.

I've never used QuickTax but I imagine this could be done with javascript and python and/or perl.

quote:


That's off the top of my head. What are you waiting for? Get coding.


Me?
You're the one on the payroll!

quote:


There ya go. Sounds a bit ambitious for your average local tech guy.


There's nothing new here, just custom databases. Getting DB's to talk to each other can't be terribly difficult - all that would be required are a set of standards - and standards are already built into whatever language you choose for the job.

Now I'm going to have to take my SQL books to work tomorrow.

  • posted by cmkl
  • Thu, May 9, 2002 6:57am

quote:


Database of collective agreements? No problem. Tell me how you'd measure "good" and "progress".


Well, for example, annual leave provisions that gave someone three weeks holiday after five years on the job would be "better" than provisions that gave someone three weeks after seven years.

A contract that had gone from offering three weeks after seven years to three weeks after five years would be considered to be making "progress".

quote:


What type of user input would be required? How would the input influence the output. Give me some examples.


I suppose this one could be ambitious as you like. From the basics like "what's the local number and who's the employer" to "how many people do you want on your executive" to "pick from the following sets of prefab executive models", to how often elections are held, to rules around voting, elections etc. the app would constrain input based on whatever rules the union had about its locals. For example, we permit "lifetime members" and "members at large" but only if they can't vote at meetings or in elections or be delegates to convention etc etc.

quote:


Don't really need an app' for that. A web page/wap page would do fine. These probably already exist, although not in a comprehensive, member-friendly form.


It's true. None of this is really rocket science. It just has to be done.

quote:


Imagine the implications if this DB was available to the membership!
That's be some serious transparency!


Well, sure. Amazon.com tells you where your order is at, why wouldn't a union? It's pretty standard.

quote:


This sounds like a job for ASP.


While you can develop open source code for closed systems, I think it would be a mistake to develop any of this stuff on any proprietary OS. Especially if it happens to be Microsoft.

quote:


Me? You're the one on the payroll!


I have one or ten things on my plate right now already I'm afraid.

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, May 10, 2002 12:28am

quote:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Database of collective agreements? No problem. Tell me how you'd measure "good" and "progress".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, for example, annual leave provisions that gave someone three weeks holiday after five years on the job would be "better" than provisions that gave someone three weeks after seven years.

A contract that had gone from offering three weeks after seven years to three weeks after five years would be considered to be making "progress".


I meant, how are you going to teach an app' to measure and categorize "good" and "progress".

Contextual algorithms aren't quite what they're cracked up to be... yet.

quote:


While you can develop open source code for closed systems, I think it would be a mistake to develop any of this stuff on any proprietary OS. Especially if it happens to be Microsoft.


Ditto! Hence my embarassment at the mention of such blasphemy.

quote:


I have one or ten things on my plate right now already I'm afraid.


Join the club!
I'm in the midst of writing a CMS (in perl) for another labour related project. I may even distribute it if it's decent. This will be my first foray into databaseland - - - wish me luck

  • posted by cmkl
  • Fri, May 10, 2002 6:45am

quote:


I meant, how are you going to teach an app' to measure and categorize "good" and "progress". Contextual algorithms aren't quite what they're cracked up to be... yet.


I wouldn't. I would get a human to do that. See, we used to have an app like that about ten or fifteen years ago, but it was a closed source thing based on a DBMS called O'Hanlan's. It was big at the time. Ever hear of it? My point exactly.

And we had/have people whose job it is to review all the thousands (literally) of collective agreements we have and to codify them so that we can see how badly or how well our people were doing and to see who has the best language etc etc.

...but it doesn't work very well any more because we're no longer using DOS 6 over top of Novell 2.11.

So I suggested it because I know many people here who would donate a lung to get a new version of that going.

And this is an app that would be best developed and administered centrally, though (I would argue) it should be made available to any member of the union on the union's web site.

  • posted by sleK
  • Fri, May 10, 2002 2:36pm

quote:


And we had/have people whose job it is to review all the thousands (literally) of collective agreements we have and to codify them so that we can see how badly or how well our people were doing and to see who has the best language etc etc.


Let's up the ante and let the users of the DB rate the language.

quote:


And this is an app that would be best developed and administered centrally


Not necessarily. It'd be more efficient to have each local update and maintain the contract entries they're responsible for themselves. This could be as simple as logging into a secure web page, cutting & pasting the appropriate text, then hit a submit button. The more I think about it, the simpler it appears.

One major problem I can think of is the lack of a standard form, or formula, or format of CA's. How could thousands of contracts be broken down into sections or subsections that could be easily compared & contrasted with others?

  • posted by cmkl
  • Mon, May 13, 2002 9:15pm

quote:


Let's up the ante and let the users of the DB rate the language.


That's interesting. Would you be worried about locals or staff "modding up" contract clauses that were actually crappy so that they look better than they ought to? How do you deal with the "well, it's a lousy deal but it's the best we get so I'm gonna give it five stars?"

I see merit in what you're saying but I do think that there has to be a material and practical scale for measuring this stuff. Five weeks after ten years is just objectively better than five weeks after twelve years, even if six people say it isn't if you win it after a six week strike.

quote:


It'd be more efficient to have each local update and maintain the contract entries they're responsible for themselves. This could be as simple as logging into a secure web page, cutting & pasting the appropriate text, then hit a submit button.


I don't agree. Getting locals to send us their change-of-address, change of officers etc notices is hard enough. Asking them to slice and dice their collective agreement into several chunks per article and paste it into form after form and then codify it into a series of relatively abstruse metadata is probably more than most are willing to do.

From our perspective, we have data entry clerks who are paid a decent wage with secure employment to do this work. They're trained to do it and they do it systematically and consistently.

Sending in news updates slashdot style is one thing. Creating a useful database is another.

quote:


How could thousands of contracts be broken down into sections or subsections that could be easily compared & contrasted with others?


..especially if you had 2200 different contracts being entered and interpreted by 2200 different brains.

  • posted by sleK
  • Tue, May 14, 2002 1:55am

quote:


That's interesting. Would you be worried about locals or staff "modding up" contract clauses that were actually crappy so that they look better than they ought to?


Not at all. There's no motivation to cheat. Having the language rated by the users (assuming this would public/on the 'net) would render any "ballot-stuffing" useless with simple security measures anyways.

quote:


How do you deal with the "well, it's a lousy deal but it's the best we get so I'm gonna give it five stars?"


What would be the point of that?
How would anyone benefit?

quote:


I see merit in what you're saying but I do think that there has to be a material and practical scale for measuring this stuff.


There isn't. It's impossible. You can not measure the quality of language without introducing bias (and other assorted human faults). This is why you leave the measuring to the users, the public, where any bias is likely to be minimized by sheer numbers.

quote:


Five weeks after ten years is just objectively better than five weeks after twelve years, even if six people say it isn't if you win it after a six week strike.


Ya, you say so. I say you let the members decide for themselves what is objectively better.

quote:


Asking them to slice and dice their collective agreement into several chunks per article and paste it into form after form and then codify it into a series of relatively abstruse metadata is probably more than most are willing to do.


What? Can't be any more difficult than QuickTax.
This is why you'd put a tech-head in each local anyways.

Anyhoo, who's to say it can't be a single form, cut & paste, and have some exquisitely designed queries do all the grunt-work. Due to the varied nature of contract formats you would be limited to basic keyword searches anyways. There is no formula in CA design (that I'm aware of). There's too many variables to design it any other way.

quote:


From our perspective, we have data entry clerks who are paid a decent wage with secure employment to do this work. They're trained to do it and they do it systematically and consistently.


Trained to input data. Not trained to develop subjective metadata on which the queries would be based on.

quote:


Sending in news updates slashdot style is one thing. Creating a useful database is another.


Slash style news updates require a waaaay more complex interaction of separate components than a database does. A database just keeps information in cold storage until the right app comes along and takes it out for dinner.

quote:


..especially if you had 2200 different contracts being entered and interpreted by 2200 different brains.


It's more democratic than having it entered and interpreted by a team of ten. The entry and interpretation would have to be two separate processes anyways. As I stated earlier; your data entry team isn't trained to interpret language.

  • posted by retailworker
  • Mon, May 20, 2002 4:31pm

Open Source and Public Policy

Some authentic brainiacs here...

© 2024 Members for Democracy