Interesting read bill the grocery stores contract expires in june 2006 talks are going to take place the union has all ready called members at home and basically told them not to expect much in the way of a contract, Hopefully the store employee,s will take the bull by the horn and follow in maplegrove footsteps, we at maplegrove can really improve our contract by just timing it right, what i mean is timing will be everything let see what would happen with a big strike maplegrove and the stores all out at once will hurt loblaws and make them see no matter who the union is the employes are fed up and won,t take it anymore.
Calling Out The Maple Grove Illuminati…
In one of the most active threads on MFD in a while, this story of the pending Maple Grove contract offer and has spurn some very curious and interesting discussion/debate. Adding to the drama now is the rejection by the membership. Making it even more chaotic is the fact other facilities have ratified similar agreements; but we'll come back to that issue in our closure.
I was impressed with the way several of the UFCW supporters were able to inject themselves into the debate and actually add something to the discussion. After a few mild chastisements, the thread took on a spirited sense of what was or wasn't right for the workers…just the way it should be.
Sadly, the UFCW's theory of negotiations has been/still is to keep members in the dark. Rather than taking my word for it, this quote here , and this comment here are stock answers when queried by the media regarding contract talks. Other than a handful of progressive local union presidents, most UFCW leaders subscribe to the premise that members should not have too much information…especially if the contract offered is concessionary in nature.
In the interest of fairness, the Maple Grove contract was presented ahead of time. The discussion regarding its merits or lack thereof where valuable to help frame the direction members were going to vote. It worked like it should. Apparently the union negotiating committee was recommending ratification but the rank and file took exception and soundly voted the offer down.
Let me be clear, this is the exact reason biz union leaders are skeptical about too much info being shared. We have made the case before and it is worth repeating… unions with totally transparent negotiations are imminently more powerful, better prepared and more able to engage the membership. Unions, who share information, enhance their bargaining power, as employers hate the exposure and candid nature of talks without rules, controls or structure.
One of the things that made this thread so interesting was the arrival of the Illuminati. I have applauded his tactics and rewarded him appropriately . Sadly, the hit and run technique is more vintage biz unionism. Their inability to stay and play in an arena they can't control (there's that pesky word again) is too much for them.
Hence my calling the Illuminati out; the workers/members at Maple Grove have spoken, and the real question is… how will the leadership respond? Will there be full support for their substantial rejection of an offer too slim? Will the UFCW marshal all of its 1.4 million members to fight on behalf of 1100 plus workers?
History doesn't provide us with much in the way of hope. A year ago in Washington State, one local rejected a contract offer while others around them took it. The local union president was told in no uncertain terms; get the contract ratified because you will get no strike support from the International. Weeks later the same crappy offer was passed.
We also witnessed on of the most inept strikes ever seen in the anals of labor history. In Southern California 70,000 UFCW members working in grocery stores said hell no to yet another concessionary contract. The locals did an adequate job in running the strike, but the International was ill prepared to oversee a battle that should have been fought across the county. Yes they paid out millions in strike benefits but the point of building this massive organization was to be able to fight national employers on a national level.
The point is: Where does Maple Grove go from here? Even the guys who supported CAW's efforts to raid the plant have said its time to put those differences behind and become one union/one-united membership. Will the UFCW leadership be up to the task?
How about it Illuminati, are you up to the challenge? The history of the real Illuminati is a bit shady and mysterious, and it is why I so enjoyed your name game. That said an effective handle is meaningless in comparison to an effective leader. Can those of you in leadership positions stand up to the pressures of the International and other locals who will be squeezing you to take the same bad deal?
Worse yet, by the time this comes to a head, the holiday season will be over and the grocery stores won't feel the same threat of a strike they would have over the past two months. Timing is everything, and yours sucks…which is nothing new…in fact it is a vintage biz union tact in ratifying concessionary agreements.
While some of you may not like this kind of open dialogue and debate, the strongest members are the ones who best understand what is happening. Any decisions that are to be made should be made with full disclosure and ample time to understand the potential pitfalls and minefields. Will you be willing to tell members straight up what is going on and why?
It's really quite simple; members deserve to know everything before they make any decisions.
I have a question. Is it too late to turn it around? Can there be change from within? As poisonous as the words spoken by "Toz" in the other thread are to our ears, could he be right? Will this contract be the lithmus of just how much damage has been done to the power of the masses. Are we simply impotent blowhards that WILL piss our pants when push comes to shove? Will we do exactly what the trough slouchers want us to do, heck, predict us to do. Big biz has been down this road before. To them we are just one of many uprising fires that they seem to put out with ease. I am intimidated being the little guy, truth be told. I will persevere but I am only one vote. If the ease at which these brushfires are put out is because of corrupt unions, how do we succeed? How do we defeat those who make the rules in order to keep us out of the game? I for one will be eager to see,geez I will see, its my contract! 
although its sad to say it must be said. the company hasnt divided us we have done it to ourselves. there are just to many people that can not go through a stike period. i dont care what they are saying now lets see them do it when the time comes and if they do and cambridge gets a better contract i applaude you BUT and its a big but remember me and what ive been saying when it just does not happen
good luck
I am of the belief that it is the two tier that Loblaws is after. And all else is gravy. When you think of it this is the 1st time the company has had pay parody at all its warehouses. Where I came from(Fortinos) we were making like 16.50 as a top rate, Kitchener was less also. The company needs to make up the money they lost with the equalization by securing at 2 tier future.
I am scared that they will offer just enough to get it passed at the Grove WITH the 2 tier still in place. They only need 51% to do it. When I overhear a negotiating committee member say "Why would you want to give something up for someone who is not even hired yet , we secured at least 140 new teir 1 guys..."or something to that affect , it lead me to believe, the fix is in. Does anyone else think this may happen?
you make some real good points and i have to agree with you.i mean lets face it 2 teir system is like winning the lottery for them
a 2nd Tier at Maplegrove isnt really a huge worry, we are almost fully staffed with full-time tier 1 guys, at over 600 full time bodies. Id bet Toz a big plate of spaghetti and meatballs that in 2 to 3 years the company would come to the union and ask to reopen the wages because they could not hire anybody for the chicken feed they are paying.
remember 12 dollars an hour can barely keep guys now, in 3 years 12 dollars wont even get anybody in the door, christ minimum wage is going to be going up to 8 dollars in the next year, you wanna break your back for 12??
voting no to a strike just because you may not be able to afford to go through a strike is IMO a lame excuse. There is nothing holding anyone back from going to get temporary employment somewhere else.
Anyone can go to a temp agence today and get a temp job. It will not pay the same but at least it's money comming in. And when you do line time you'll get another check.
1100 people looking for work you say??? Well well we aren't restricted to the tri city are we? Toronto is 45 minuites away, Brandford is 30 min away.. etc etc... Don't have a car then car pool.
Why should I, what about my family ???? Wouldn't it be better to sacrifice a couple of days/weeks/months now in order to make a better life for your family for the next 3-5 years?
What about my credit and loan payments????Concolidate your debt. Go to the bank or when the strike vote is asked for and take everything that you owe money on and throw it into one payment. Or refinance your house and throw it on there.
Some credit cards have insurance for just this situation..... Morgages as well.
What about my heat and electricity????
No company can shut off your hydro or gas or cable etc so long as your making an effort to make a payment. Not nessarily the whole payment but something towards what is owed. Call the company and tell them what is going on and let them know that a certian amount is going to be paid on "this date" and then pay that amount on that date.
i never said i was in that situation but i know that about 75% of the people are
YOU CALLED CMARTINS WIFE A WHORE...I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT SHE IS THE MOST SINCERE WOMAN YOU WOULD EVER WANT TO MEET...AS FOR CMARTIN ...HE IS AS A STAND UP GUY YOU CAN FIND ....BETWEEN THE BOTH OF THEM THEY HAVE A WONDERFUL BABY BOY...
SO IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS HAPPY FAMILY YOU BETTER GO THROUGH ME FIRST...YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT...IT`S TRUE THAT LOSERS GRASP FOR STRAWS...
IF YOU SLANDER THE MARTIN FAMILY ONE MORE TIME I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND MAKE YOU PAY...I HAVE FOUND OUT MORE ABOUT HOW YOU CAME TO YOUR ASSETS...A FELLOW WORKER THAT WAS AT THE GROVE AND THE RETURNED TO SURVEYORS HAS GIVEN MORE THAN I COULD BELIEVE...SO SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE MARTINS OR I START MAKING PHONE CALLS...YOU DO NOT WANT TO PISS ME OFF...REMEMBER I HAVE NO CONSCIENCE...I WOULD LOVE NOYHING MORE...
Can I give you a hug on Monday DOTD?
HEY TOZ....WHERE ARE YOU...DID I STRIKE A NEVE...I SURE HOPE SO...WHY DON`T YOUE JUST GO AWAY...YOU BRING NOTHING BUT GLOOM TO THIS FORUM...EVERYONES WIFE IS A WHORE AND YOUR LIFE IS ALL SPARKLE...
WELL MY FRIEND ,,,YOUR LIFE HAS A PAPER TRAIL AND THERE ARE CERTAIN OFFICES THAT WOULD LIKE TOP SPEAK TO YOU...
I SUGGEST YHAT YOU STOP YOUR POSTINGS AND LET REAL MEN DEAL WITH THE MATTERS AT HAND...THIS IS OUR FUTURE...NOT YOURS ANYMORE...YOU MADE YOUR DECISSION...LIVE WITH IT AND LEAVE US ALONE...YOU BRING NOTHING TO THE TABLE AND WE NOW ARE FAMILIAR WITH YOUR WAY OF THINKING....IT JUST DOES`NT FLY ANY MORE...YOUR PASSE AND EVERYONE THINKS YOUR AN IDIOT...IN FACT I`D LIKE TO BORROW YOUR BLUEPRINT CAUSE I`M BUILDING ONE...
IF YOU WYSH TO BE PRO-ACTIVE THEN WE WANT YOUR INPUT...BUT...IF YOU WISH TO BE A DICK...THRN PISS OFF...
Fortunately, it seems Toz got booted.
Unfortunately I didn't get to give him my version of a "fuck off" posting to sort of balance out the always civil Bill Pearson. Luv ya Bill, but sometimes ya just gotta rip the guy's scrotum open, cocktail-sword his balls and use 'em to garnish his foo-foo martini. Oh well, maybe next time.
Anyway the MG boys did a nice job with their thread nuisance. Carry on boys.
The company can't afford a strike especially Maplegrove to go on strike. At store level the company and the union know that if the stores were to go on strike the members would cross the line within days. At store level nobody cares about what happens come contract time and the company knows it. We have over 13,000 members at Loblaws and come voting time we only get at the most 2500 members voting. Look what happened at Fortinos a few years ago when the members went on strike, they fell apart and crossed the line and got less than what the company offered. You guys can shut down most of Ontario which Loblaws can't afford especially at a time when Loblaws promised the shareholders that by next summer the company will begin to reap the rewards. Good for you guys at the , Grove, stick together and fight for your rights as well as future members.NO TWO TIER PAY SCALE.
quote:
Grove, stick together and fight for your rights as well as future members.NO TWO TIER PAY SCALE.
Couldn't agree more em. Two tier agreements are the final leg of the concession journey to hell.
They completely rip a shopfloor (solidarity) into bits and pieces. The ufcw 1518 two-tier agreement is 7 years in progress. There's not been any kind of return from it. As fast as gains are made at one end the employer can cut it off the other - it's the nature of the two-tier beast.
If you want to work in hell all you need is a two tier agreement and you're there.
At store level we have a 3 tier wage system in place and the last round of negotiations the company was pushing for a fourth tier that would cap part timers in some departments at $10.00. What a disaster this union has negotiated for its current and future members. We are all doing the same job for different levels of pay. Isn't part of having a union is to be treated equally? Not these guys negotiating our future, thats for sure.
Is there any time in which a 2 tier system can be justified?
Personally I feel the only way it should be concidered is if the company in question is losing tons of money every year and the 2 tier system is the only thing that will save jobs, even then it should only be temporary until the company is more stable.
I agree, this company hasn't been in that position since the late 70's where they almost went bankrupt. This company has been making money hand over fist for the last 25 years off the backs of the members. We need a union that works for the people not the company. I was listening to the shareholder meeting from last week and John Lederer was boasting how the company was getting cooperation from their unions and how 10 presidents from all the locals came to the shareholders meeting. I always thought there was a fine line between management and the union when it deals with issues regarding collective bargaining, but this is unacceptable.
quote:
Is there any time in which a 2 tier system can be justified?
Sure - it can be justified if you approach it from a mythical standpoint - that it's a corporation's inallienable right to maximize profit at whatever cost to human life. Other than that it's a complete fallacy, pure crap - bullshit ifya' will.
If the shysters are telling the truth then let's see them relinguish a few million off their own take-home to save the company. Ha! what a friggin' joke - we all know that won't happen.
Tell them to take the two-tier and shove it back up their ass where it came from. We won't be selling ourselves or our co-workers so that you mr corphead can double your take, add it to a resume and then move on. Well not unless we get sold out by our union, that is.
If corporations want to belabour their myth that it must pay top dollar to retain good help then we're all for that. There's just one fucking stipulation - that includes us!
Screw them and their mythical labour cost cutting necessities and corporate paper losses! If the top pigs are slurping green - it's all or nothing - everyone or no-one buttheads - we get some too!
Oh and there's no point trying to convince your mainstream union machinehead that the employer is bullshitting. They already know all about this but two-tier kickbacks are addictive - cash rewards plus fresh dues in the union cookie jar all for concessions - ah what a life eh boys!
what was the question?
IVE BEEN READING WHAT PEARSON HAS SAID
and although illuminati and i are good friends
pearson does make some very good points and i would like to see iluminati respond as well could make for some interesting reading
GOOD DAY TOZ...I`M GLAD THAT YOUR BACK AND PROMISE TO BEHAVE YOURSELF...I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I DO NOT KNOW WHO YOU ARE NOR DO I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOU...
IT`S JUST THAT WHEN YOU ATTACK PEOPLE THAT ARE DEAR TO ME THEN I RESPOND IN THE ONLY WAY I KNOW HOW...I AM SORRY IF I UPSET YOU ONLY IF YOU ARE MAN ENOUGH TO SAY YOUR SORRY TO CMARTIN AND HIS WIFE...
WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER BRO AND IT`S OUR FUTURE TOGETHER THAT HAS THE DEEPEST MEANING...YOU HAVE TO ADMIT IT WAS FUN...
I AM VERY INTERESTED IN THE FEELINGS OF FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN TORONTO...I HOPE YOU CAN ENLIGHTEN US WITH THE FEELINGS AND PROJECTIONS OF SAID...
I AM CURIOUS ABOUT YOU VOTE TURN OUT...LESS THAN 50 PER CENT...DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT...
I myself do not like the idea of a 2 tier BUT What we do if the company says ok no 2 tier but you will have to cut other places ie: pensions, benefits whatever.
Are we willing to sacrfice for the members that are not there yet or have only been there for a very short time?
I am only being the devils advocate on this, I only want to point out what might happen. I know in Kitchener when they had a 2 tier it really divided the workers.
There are only a couple of things that I would be willing to scale back on, but I don't want to say what they are and give the company any ideas 
quote:
Are we willing to sacrfice for the members that are not there yet or have only been there for a very short time?
NWO (recognizing your role as devil's advocate),
I think we must sacrifice for the short-term and future employees. Aside from the arguments about fairness and creating a dignified workplace for those who follow us, it's vital to remember that multi-tiered systems are part of the divide and conquer strategy being used by our employers. In allowing their existence, we weaken the position of each and every one of us.
The most potent weapon we have as workers is the ability to withhold our labor. That‘s only an effective strategy as long as we can maintain solidarity with our co-workers. Solidarity depends upon our having a mutually equivalent interest in the outcome of any labor action: if we're victorious, we win the same prize; if we fail, we take the same hit.
In creating a system with two (or more tiers) our employers and our unions have allowed for the formation of a class system within our ranks. Those at the top have much to lose as wages and benefits are eroded by sub-standard bargaining , and therefore might be willing to strike when tendered a piece-of- shit contract. But, those at the bottom have little concern about a strike since their paltry wage and benefit structure can be matched by the non-union competition. Further, there is a strong inducement for them to cross picket lines since the employers will offer them more money than they are now getting. And why should they turn it down given that the top- tiered workers didn't care about them in the first place?
Ultimately, the different tiers have competing interests in regards to any potential outcomes---brilliant strategy from the employers.
Anyone wanting to read up more on "two-tierism" should check out this site: www.nomoretiers.org
quote:
NoMoreTiers.org is a pro-union, pro-working class, website dedicated to the elimination of multi-tier, discriminatory wage policies based on any grounds (race, religion, age, sex, sexual-orientation, regular employee compliment numbers, core numbers), and all other forms of corporate voodoo aimed at the division of the working class. Our watchwords are; Equal pay (and benefits) for equal work.
HEY DICK
I WAS DISSAPOINTED WITH THE TURN OUT AT OUR VOTING BUT I WAS TOLD THAT THE TURN OUT AT YOUR BUILDING WAS UNDER 50%ALSO
The initial post i did here contained no less than 6 pertinent questions regarding the future of members woking at Maple Grove. I could list them, but i was really hoping those of you working for Loblaws and at the Grove would dig down and attempt to answer them.
I hate to say this, but what you are facing isn't about choosing the CAW or the UFCW. You need have one focus, and that is what will happen to each of you. How will your Union respond? Will they rally all UFCW members across Canada to stand with you as one? Will they fight for a good contract or force you to take the same crap as everyone else?
I don't care what your allegiances were; right now they need be towards creating a solidarity strong enough to withstand the wealth of Loblaws...and then insuring your Union is on the same page. You deserve to know where they are and what to expect from them.
So come on boys, belly up to the bar and tell us what's going to happen.
Toz, the vote at Maplegrove was 518 votes no and 103 votes yes for a total of 621. There are no more then 1000+ people working at Maplegrove, which would make the % that voted somewhere between 58%-62%.
oh ok
i was told something else just clearing it up
but its still sad youd figure that with such an important vote that people would actually show up.
same people who dont show up to vote then start whining later on i mean come on. you dont come out to vote you should just shut your mouth.
doesnt really matter what you vote as everyone has there own opinion but you must vote something its only common sense. i feel that this is one of our problems to many people just dont care
How much per hour of yours is bein' pissed into the CCWIPP?
Loblaw rolls back your wages and pumps up the dough that goes into the CCWIPP. What's it up to now--65 or 80 cents per hour.
It's part of your pay package. Why wouldn't you worry about who you're payin' that money to every single hour that you work?
I don't get what you are saying Weiser?
quote:
posted by cmartin:
I don't get what you are saying Weiser?
It's simple cm...
That money is yours. The company is paying it. So you could be getting at this moment .65-.80/hour more on your paycheck. Instead it's going to God (big G) knows where. Shouldn't you have exact accounting of it? Maybe a clued in money-manager could get you a proper Return On Investment... instead of beachfront properties for guys you don't know. Most UFCW members haven't got a clue about this extra cash they are earning and how much of it there actually is. Every UFCW contract up in the last few years had the presidents begging for more pension money... with much more of an energentic plea than getting a higher hourly rate.
Just clue the working boys in and ask the questions. A vague one-sheet-few-numbers pension letter once a year (basically saying 'times are really, really, really, tough') is not enough.
I think weiser meant something like that.
If you are talking about the CCWIPP, that is not the pension plan I am in.
Doesn't matter. I'm not in the CCWIPP either. I'm in the Ontario United Food and Commercial Workers PP. It's related to CCWIPP (Cliff Evans is the man) and it's in worse shape than the CCWIPP. It's an offshoot that seems to have been created and used for 'better' purposes with the great excuse of avoiding 'conflict of interest'... which if they are serious is an even bigger joke. There is now notice of a partial windup (?) which is odd/interesting/scary/etc. all at the same time.
Not sure which one you're in... but do you know much more than the name of it? Cah ya share? What are you/have you contributed? And what's it getting for you at retirement?
There is this little thing that I love about those that aren't vested in these plans... meaning the countless people that worked and contributed but didn't acheive pp eligibility requirements (length of time or number of hours). The remaining members are supposed to reap the benefits of that extra-mega-cash. Look closely and you'll find you barely reap what you yourself sow (a biblical analogy and just so you know the word 'barely' is probably an overstatement).
Do you cm, know where your money is? And where is the money of all those nice unvested people? Would you like to be part of the upcoming CCWIPP/OUFCWPP/Whatever-plan-you're-in party and for-MFD-ic audit at the FSCO offices? They have tons of room over there, I can assure you. And they need help with their social skills because they rarely see pissed off, ripped off members of the public themselves. We can fit you in.
Let me know.
Look up your plan and contact person here...
http://www2.fsco.gov.on.ca/ppfweb/PlanAccess.ppf
It is called 'The Pension Plan for Hourly-paid Employees of Loblaws Supermarkets Ltd.
I don't know all of the details about it, but according to my 2004 pension statement "the solvency ratio of the plan was 91%. In other words, if the plan had teminated on Dec 31 2003, there would only be enough funds to pay 91% of the accrued benefits. Loblaw Companies Limited is making special payments in accordance with applicable pension legislation to cover this shortfall"
Currently I contribute 1 % of my pensionable earnings and "the company funds the balance including any possible deficit"
These statements that I get every year do give some details, but I still do not know exactly what they do with my money.
quote:
posted by cmartin:
I don't know all of the details about it, but according to my 2004 pension statement "the solvency ratio of the plan was 91%. In other words, if the plan had teminated on Dec 31 2003, there would only be enough funds to pay 91% of the accrued benefits. Loblaw Companies Limited is making special payments in accordance with applicable pension legislation to cover this shortfall"
You're one lucky dude cm (if not getting screwed as much is 'lucky'). My statement has us at 67% as of Dec/03. And I'm just logically assuming it's worse since then (that partial windup thing).
Here's an old Potentate thread discussing my plan and the relationship with CCWIPP. In it rv had mentioned that CCWIPP's ratio was at around 62%... so once again... you're a lucky dude.
I still have about 30 years to go until retirement, so I don't know if I am that lucky. A lot can change in my pension plan between now and 2035.
What happens if people begin to transfer lump sums into other lock'd in vehicles - you know safer ones, less gouged ones. Some plans do have a lump sum option. It's risky for many reasons but so too is staying if a plan is crashing or one knows it to be vulnerable.
Bailing would obviously create a plan crisis, if people did choose to take their lumps, hell it could put the entire economy in crisis, for all we know but is it better that people take the crumbs and run than to wait for a plan to entirely collapse?
Choices like this are much better made if people have something besides don't worry be happy to go on. So if a crisis does arise whoya' gonna' blame?